Pro Stock Bike: V-Rods getting 4 valves + "transmission issue" (1 Viewer)

See this one: Drag Racing Internet Magazine - Competition Plus.com - ANOTHER UNPUBLICIZED NHRA RULE

The second paragraph mentions a "Hayabusa combination" and "transmission issue", does anyone here have the background on what that was all about?

Regards
PiPPi
http://HarleyDrags.com

NHRA tells DSR they can build a 'Busa -as long as Suzuki is behind it + will put a part number on it. Its all done--now NHRA doesnt like the tranny. (why I dont know.)

Gann racing wants to build a 4 valve head for the old Suzuki (which WAS a 4 valve motor to begin with.) Get verbal ok from NHRA-builds it--then gets turned down.

$creaming Eagle (HD) wins another championship (5th in 7 years?)-never qualifies out of the top 5-was in contention to win every race all year- gets a 4 valve head approved. (oh yea--the bikes that were gonna be made availible after they were "sorted out" but still number exactly 2)

I'm getting really really disgusted with how things are being done by the powers that be. I've avoided bashing for the most part--but everyday i get less interested in NHRA.
 
Well I can shed some light on this...

1st I think the V-Rods getting a whole other motor to run is total BS... They have won 4 of the last 5 Championships on what they have... Why do they need more.... I guess Harley is buying NHRA out....

2nd I had the new body work last year approved by nhra ( DON TAYLOR ) to build the 1125 r body... I built it... Had Bob Blackwell there 3 different times (from NHRA) at the shop and approved everything.... Then Harley and Don Taylor decided not to approve it after body, molds were done costing me around 20k.. NHRA never offered to help recoop any of the money....

3rd All I know about the new suzuki motor is that NHRA said built it... They had a plastic motor made to show NHRA and drawing... NHRA said go with it... Suzuki and Shoe get it done, brings the bike to pomona to show NHRA.. Then NHRA says the trans has to be fixed inside the cases... The buell trans comes out the side of the motor... Not sure if the harleys comes out the side or not... Now They are buiding anther motor very similiar to what they already made with the trans inside the cases...

I will let you know more as I know...... Matt
 
Thanks Matt, reminds me of when Wayne Dupuy built an NHRA approved blower manifold..............:eek:
 
I don't want to hijack this thread, and won't.... but I do want to say one thing about the Harley/4-cylinder bike issue that has always bothered me. It's no big thing, but has been a pet peeve of mine since the Harleys started running in PSB. It's not actually about the racing; the racing is fine. It's about the announcing, and what they DON'T say...

To wit: Drag racing has ALWAYS been about "specific output." That's just another way of saying "horsepower-per-cubic-inch." Since day-1... That's why we have classes, like A, B, C, D.... et al....

Along comes some marketing type who thinks that NHRA is missing a good bet by not including Harleys in its Pro Stock Bike program, so they decide to let them run. Good idea; most people love 'em! Nothing else sounds like a HOG...

One engineering rule-of-thumb that is universally-accepted as being valid is, for any given displacement, the more cylinders an engine has, the more power potential it has, everything else being equal.

They were aware of that in the Ivory Tower in Glandora, so they formulated rules that would handicap the multi-cylinder bikes in their competition with Harleys by assigning less weight-per-cubic inch to the 2-cylinder bikes, from the outset, to level the playing field.

No problem; fair is fair.

My beef is with the announcers who as far as I know, have NEVER pointed out to the listening public (I'm talking about TV, here) that those two bikes on the starting line, one V-Rod, (for instance,) and one Suzuki, are as different as night and day, in regards to how much work their engines are about to do, on a per-cubic-inch basis.

I DON'T expect Mike Dunn to go into a technical discussion about the vagaries of multi-cylinder engines' cylinder-filling vs. the 2-cylinder motors'... not at all. BUT, it sure would be nice to hear him say something like, "Well in this final, one bike will be running about 18,000 rpm, while the other will be turning more like 10,000 (or, however tight they turn those big-cylinder motors in the V-Rod-type motors), and the high-winding Japanese motors have to pull X-number of pounds of bike and driver weight per cubic inch, while the slower-turning, 2-cylinder Harley-style motors only have to pull X-minus whatever the number... a decidedly lesser amount, to maintain parity."

To simply explain that a Harley-style motor is not capable of producing power on the same level as a high-winding 4-cylinder bike is certainly NOT an insult; It's just a part of the educational process that I feel SHOULD be included in the race announcing. The fans need to know, I think. Otherwise, it looks like a Harley-style motor is capable of the same specific output as a Suzuki/Kawasaki, or whatever.... and that's just not true. But, if nothing is said, it LOOKS true, because they win a lot, and that's okay.

I would bet my last dollar that Mike Dunn is fully aware of all this, but I'm almost as sure that NHRA doesn't WANT he public to know the facts behind that 2-cyl. vs. 4-cyl. relationship because they'd prefer the PR glitz of championing an AMERICAN bike... with no ancillary information that it had to enjoy a "handicap" of the other bike, in order for it to win.

Now, I'm just as patriotic/nationalistic as the next guy (Army veteran, etc.), but facts is facts....

I think it sucks. People (fans) need to know what's going on. Drag racing is, if nothing else, a technical sport, and the "meat" of it is lost, if you ignore the pertinent details, which is what these announcers have been doing, as far as I've been able to tell.

The Harley fan base that is enthusiastic about this racing wouldn't be offended, or affected, at all by a little honesty from the announcing booth.

It sure would make ME feel a lot better, to have that part of PSB racing explained in a very simple, no "tech-obfuscation" way. Or, have I missed this in broadcasts? I don't watch all of the series on TV, but what I have watched (maybe 75-percent of the races), I've never heard a peep about this. Have you?

If I am mistaken about this, please, somebody, set me straight. I don't want to go on with the wrong idea...

Harleys are so cool.... and I wouldn't change the "handicap" program as it stands, because they seem pretty well-matched to me. It works.!

Thanks for listening. Now, back to the 4-valve/transmission issue...


Bill, in Conway, Arkansas
 
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As far as the fours, I believe it may have always been in the rulebook that the transmission had to be housed in the engine cases. It is in the 09 rulebook.

DSR should not have any issues when the new motor comes out.

Suzuki and Kawasaki are the only Japanese manufacturers that gets behind drag racing. Suzuki places a lot of ads featuring the AMA Dragbike Suzuki winners. This is because that is the only large organization that races currently produced Suzukis. I feel that the involvement by Suzuki in the DSR project is to try to bring NHRA pro stock into the 21st century, so they can also advertise when a Suzuki wins there.

Jay
 
NHRA tells DSR they can build a 'Busa -as long as Suzuki is behind it + will put a part number on it. Its all done--now NHRA doesnt like the tranny. (why I dont know.)

Gann racing wants to build a 4 valve head for the old Suzuki (which WAS a 4 valve motor to begin with.) Get verbal ok from NHRA-builds it--then gets turned down.

$creaming Eagle (HD) wins another championship (5th in 7 years?)-never qualifies out of the top 5-was in contention to win every race all year- gets a 4 valve head approved. (oh yea--the bikes that were gonna be made availible after they were "sorted out" but still number exactly 2)

I'm getting really really disgusted with how things are being done by the powers that be. I've avoided bashing for the most part--but everyday i get less interested in NHRA.


That's because Harley Davidson is the official motorcycle of the NHRA! :cool:
Just another reason the exclusive crap has to go bye bye.....
 
Gee, I'm completely shocked :)rolleyes:) that NHRA would give favor to the Hardley's. What a crock of ****...again.
 
I don't want to hijack this thread, and won't.... but I do want to say one thing about the Harley/4-cylinder bike issue that has always bothered me. It's no big thing, but has been a pet peeve of mine since the Harleys started running in PSB. It's not actually about the racing; the racing is fine. It's about the announcing, and what they DON'T say...

To wit: Drag racing has ALWAYS been about "specific output." That's just another way of saying "horsepower-per-cubic-inch." Since day-1... That's why we have classes, like A, B, C, D.... et al....

Along comes some marketing type who thinks that NHRA is missing a good bet by not including Harleys in its Pro Stock Bike program, so they decide to let them run. Good idea; most people love 'em! Nothing else sounds like a HOG...

One engineering rule-of-thumb that is universally-accepted as being valid is, for any given displacement, the more cylinders an engine has, the more power potential it has, everything else being equal.

They were aware of that in the Ivory Tower in Glandora, so they formulated rules that would handicap the multi-cylinder bikes in their competition with Harleys by assigning less weight-per-cubic inch to the 2-cylinder bikes, from the outset, to level the playing field.

No problem; fair is fair.

My beef is with the announcers who as far as I know, have NEVER pointed out to the listening public (I'm talking about TV, here) that those two bikes on the starting line, one V-Rod, (for instance,) and one Suzuki, are as different as night and day, in regards to how much work their engines are about to do, on a per-cubic-inch basis.

I DON'T expect Mike Dunn to go into a technical discussion about the vagaries of multi-cylinder engines' cylinder-filling vs. the 2-cylinder motors'... not at all. BUT, it sure would be nice to hear him say something like, "Well in this final, one bike will be running about 18,000 rpm, while the other will be turning more like 10,000 (or, however tight they turn those big-cylinder motors in the V-Rod-type motors), and the high-winding Japanese motors have to pull X-number of pounds of bike and driver weight per cubic inch, while the slower-turning, 2-cylinder Harley-style motors only have to pull X-minus whatever the number... a decidedly lesser amount, to maintain parity."

To simply explain that a Harley-style motor is not capable of producing power on the same level as a high-winding 4-cylinder bike is certainly NOT an insult; It's just a part of the educational process that I feel SHOULD be included in the race announcing. The fans need to know, I think. Otherwise, it looks like a Harley-style motor is capable of the same specific output as a Suzuki/Kawasaki, or whatever.... and that's just not true. But, if nothing is said, it LOOKS true, because they win a lot, and that's okay.

I would bet my last dollar that Mike Dunn is fully aware of all this, but I'm almost as sure that NHRA doesn't WANT he public to know the facts behind that 2-cyl. vs. 4-cyl. relationship because they'd prefer the PR glitz of championing an AMERICAN bike... with no ancillary information that it had to enjoy a "handicap" of the other bike, in order for it to win.

Now, I'm just as patriotic/nationalistic as the next guy (Army veteran, etc.), but facts is facts....

I think it sucks. People (fans) need to know what's going on. Drag racing is, if nothing else, a technical sport, and the "meat" of it is lost, if you ignore the pertinent details, which is what these announcers have been doing, as far as I've been able to tell.

The Harley fan base that is enthusiastic about this racing wouldn't be offended, or affected, at all by a little honesty from the announcing booth.

It sure would make ME feel a lot better, to have that part of PSB racing explained in a very simple, no "tech-obfuscation" way. Or, have I missed this in broadcasts? I don't watch all of the series on TV, but what I have watched (maybe 75-percent of the races), I've never heard a peep about this. Have you?

If I am mistaken about this, please, somebody, set me straight. I don't want to go on with the wrong idea...

Harleys are so cool.... and I wouldn't change the "handicap" program as it stands, because they seem pretty well-matched to me. It works.!

Thanks for listening. Now, back to the 4-valve/transmission issue...


Bill, in Conway, Arkansas

I remember reading or hearing somewhere that Mike Dunn was told to dumn it down when talking about technical stuff so that the "Average" fan could understand . Personally I think it should be more technical and more detailed because I am the type of fan who wants to know exactly what is going on and how it all works in any class.
 
Well know that Harley Davidson is the official motorcycle of nhra. So Harley has a little wieght to throw around. This new motor set up Harley has pushed Nhra for has more than likely been in the works for a good time. This new set up probably showed go numbers on a dyno. So the Hines family has pushed Harley to get this passed. So for the board members of NHRA to pass this rule change they had to have got a cut under the table. It had to be cash or a new motorcycle or both. We all know that if NHRA stays in the direction they are going they will slowly lose the fans base that makes it possible to go racing on weekends.


p.s. this new motor harley has was more than likely designed by the hines group not harley is self.
 
(quote=MIke Middleton) p.s. this new motor harley has was more than likely designed by the hines group not harley is self.(end quote)

True----sorta-- they are saying that since VHR is on HD's payroll(sponsored by HD) that makes it built with HD money---so thats how it becomes a HD


I kinda see it-----I kinda dont

I think the Suzuki/DSR/McClaren deal is sorta the same type of thing.

I dont understand why the NHRA would reject the cartridge type trans on the new DSR/Suzuki-it dont make it any faster-just easier and cheaper to service.
 
(quote=MIke Middleton) p.s. this new motor harley has was more than likely designed by the hines group not harley is self.(end quote)

True----sorta-- they are saying that since VHR is on HD's payroll(sponsored by HD) that makes it built with HD money---so thats how it becomes a HD


I kinda see it-----I kinda dont

I think the Suzuki/DSR/McClaren deal is sorta the same type of thing.

I dont understand why the NHRA would reject the cartridge type trans on the new DSR/Suzuki-it dont make it any faster-just easier and cheaper to service.
AFAIK that is correct. I have a friend who worked as a test engineer for the Harley MoCo at Talladega and the old Ford test track outside of Naples, Fla. He claimed that noone on the "regular" Harley-Davidson R&D workforce drew a single penstroke or turned one wrench as regards to the design, development and production of the V&H V-Rod.

The MoCo "only" opened the wallet to get it done but that is obviously as crucial as anything to getting a pretty cool and strong bike out onto the race track. Money talks and all that but having an engineering background I credit the bike as a V&H bike, not a Harley.

As you said about the cartridge tranny, it gives an advantage in regards to service and maintenance. That can be crucial between rounds to get further in qualifying and eliminations if you run into any sort of tranny problem.

Regards
PiPPi
http://HarleyDrags.com
 
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