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P/S EFI - you can bet NHRA will be watching this (1 Viewer)

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The Counterfeiter

The Counterfeiter

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Interesting stuff . . .

NASCAR names fuel injection official partners - Feb 11, 2011 - NASCAR.COM

We were in the garage area just before last year's Brickyard 400 at Indy and I was very surprised to see McLaren employees mounting parts on the Cup cars. Apparently, McLaren has provided the device that holds the scoring transducer (which is added by NASCAR Tech) since 2005. Shouldn't be too much of a leap for Freescale to develop an ECU for a P/S motor. We'll just have to wait and see.
 
When you see how EFI and the related engine controls are bringing out upwards of 2 HP per cubic inch on production street cars, you can just imagine what they could do in a racing application.

We already have all sorts of computer sensors on race cars so the crew chiefs can monitor what happens during the run. It's not a big leap to include fuel delivery and engine management into the mix.

How many years has it been since a production street car has come with a carburetor? Even motorcycles have EFI and anti-lock braking systems these days.

I suppose the down side will be that there could be some difficulty (for a time) monitoring software usage and perhaps other injected products.....
 
The extreme difficulty in policing things is the hold up for Nascar, and I would imagine it causes the same amount of stomach burn for NHRA tech people.
 
I would imagine that they will do the ECUs the same way they do restrictor plates. You pick them up as soon as you pull into the gates, and a NASCAR official watches you install it. It is marked a certain way by NASCAR, and you turn it back in before you pull out of the gates, and the marking ensures it is the same one.

Incidentally, this is the same thing they do with ECUs in F1, in which McLaren competes.

I have long advocated NHRA moving to EFI in Pro Stock if for no other reason than to get the publicity and beat NASCAR to the punch. Now, no matter when NHRA switches to EFI, it will be viewed as reactionary or a non-story. I would also like to see EFI in Pro Stock so we can have flat hoods, and get the cars back more stock appearing by the elimination of the scoop.
 
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Registered member said:
I have long advocated NHRA moving to EFI in Pro Stock if for no other reason than to get the publicity and beat NASCAR to the punch. Now, no matter when NHRA switches to EFI, it will be viewed as reactionary or a non-story. I would also like to see EFI in Pro Stock so we can have flat hoods, and get the cars back more stock appearing by the elimination of the scoop.
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absolutely positively 100% correct, Chris, a bull's-eye.;);)
 
I sure don't want flat hoods! I'm not sure the saying win on Sunday, sell on Monday still holds true. Hood scoops and race cars belong together. Just my opinion...:D
 
Registered member said:
I would also like to see EFI in Pro Stock so we can have flat hoods, and get the cars back more stock appearing by the elimination of the scoop.
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You'll have to punt the current intake manifold while you're at it, if you want a flatter hood. Pat Musi's nitrous ProMod employs EFI. Same tunnel ram style intake, same old scoop.
 
I'm not sure why people think that EFI will enable a change to flat hoods? The throttle bodies might be an inch or two shorter, but the air requirements and intake designs are pretty much the same....
 
Registered member said:
I sure don't want flat hoods! I'm not sure the saying win on Sunday, sell on Monday still holds true. Hood scoops and race cars belong together. Just my opinion...:D
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I agree with you. I feel if it has a flat hood it looks stock, not pro-stock.
 
The only thing that would eliminate hood scoops from a Pro Stocker would be a rule that prohibited them. Intake manifold design determines where the air enters the engine. With as much R&D (translated as $) as there has been dumped into the current designs don't expect them to change just beause the engine builders can introduce the fuel in a different location. Over the long term you might see some differences but don't expect sweeping changes when, and IF, NHRA ever decides to go to EFI.

There are already an abundance of companies producing EFI control modules (not "computers" as you nostalgia guys refer to them...hehehe) for the drag racing industry. To name a few...

F.A.S.T.
Big Stuff
Electromotive (not to be confused with Electromotion)
M.F.I.
HalTech
Holley

There is already a wealth of knowledge in the industry surrounding electronic fuel and ignition management. Surprisingly, though, there is a huge misconception about the similarities between EFI on our daily drivers and EFI on a race car. Contrary to belief, an EFI system on a race car-especially on a naturally aspirated engine-does little or no "live" or "active" adjustment during a run. Turbocharged or supercharged systems will perform active fuel and ignition adjustments based on boost/load levels, though. Our dialy drivers are constantly adjusting the AFR and ignition timing (and more modern engines will control cam timing) to satisfy economy and emissions. Like most mechanical or electronic management systems on a drag racing vehicle, EFI is-for the most part-set it and hope for the best. Any adjustment during a 1/8 mile or 1/4 mile pass will usually result in a slower E.T. even though it could very easily save a wasted run. While the control modules can make decisions in microseconds the effect of change is not as fast especially when you are dealing with a race car that is constantly accelerating and requiring such a high traction coefficient.

The ignition systems that are currently available are to be more feared than any fuel delivery system. Racers and the manufacturers have just started to scratch the surface on controlling wheel speed/spin, RPM slew rate, and adaptive strategy with respect to ignition control...
 
We are converting our S/C car to a Hilborn fuel injection system this year, driven by the FAST XFi box. We, and another guy in D3 will be among the first to use individual runner fuel injection (as opposed to a throttle body) in a drag racing application, and we believe the first to use it in a throttle stop application. We expect to gain 100hp over the previous carburetor application and see a dramatic improvement in throttle response. In addition, with the system taking O2 sensing into account, we expect outstanding consistency in a variety of weather conditions. And we also expect to be called insane by virtually everyone we race with :)
 
Registered member said:
I agree with you. I feel if it has a flat hood it looks stock, not pro-stock.
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I agree. For reference...when GM introduced the (new) GTO several years ago the car had a flat, smooth hood. The Pontiac muscle car purists were disappointed that the car didn't have any hood scoops...even non-functional scoops. I spoke to several life long Pontiac fans/collectors who shared the same opinion.

I like hood scoops on Pro Stock cars. I would hope they could be downsized some. They're so large now that they look odd. I suppose the only redeeming quality would be they offer another area to reflect a sponsor's logo.
 
Registered member said:
When you see how EFI and the related engine controls are bringing out up wards of 2 HP per cubic inch on production street cars, you can just imagine what they could do in a racing application.

We already have all sorts of computer sensors on race cars so the crew chiefs can monitor what happens during the run. It's not a big leap to include fuel delivery and engine management into the mix.

How many years has it been since a production street car has come with a carburetor? Even motorcycles have EFI and anti-lock braking systems these days.

I suppose the down side will be that there could be some difficulty (for a time) monitoring software usage and perhaps other injected products.....
Click to expand...

Mike,

Excellent points. EFI is long overdue. It can be easily monitored by NHRA. All they need to do is use the model NASCAR has for governing restrictor plates and their use. There's nothing wrong with following or copying a process developed by NASCAR. They've been the leader in motorsports and will continue to be for the foreseeable future.

I hope NHRA moves quickly in this direction. Carburetors have been out of production for nearly 30 years...it's long overdue in the class.
 
I remember a National Dragster interview with Warren Johnson a few years ago where he talked about EFI potentially coming to Pro Stock (he was in favor of it).

My memory is that he stated that the extra aero drag from the current hood scoops cost them the equivalent of about 80 HP.

Since EFI would allow more flexibility on the intake manifold design, likely somebody would figure out the right balance between gain from reduced aero drag versus the loss from having a little less "straight shot" on the intake manifold with less overall height.

It would definitely make Pro Stock racing pretty interesting for a few years while the teams sorted it out.

I'd say let the carbs run against EFI for as long as they are still competitive, that would make it more interesting also.
 
I remember that interview with WJ as well. I was surprised and impressed that he supported the idea of moving to EFI. I would have guessed he supported current technology (carbs) and the reduced cost of staying with them. He did mention the scoop costing significant HP just to move it through the air at speed. I would like to see hood scoops remain on the cars, but I'd certainly like to see a more visually appealing size to them.

If WJ says its the right thing to do, I can't imagine arguing against him.
 
Registered member said:
We are converting our S/C car to a Hilborn fuel injection system this year, driven by the FAST XFi box. We, and another guy in D3 will be among the first to use individual runner fuel injection (as opposed to a throttle body) in a drag racing application, and we believe the first to use it in a throttle stop application. We expect to gain 100hp over the previous carburetor application and see a dramatic improvement in throttle response.
Click to expand...

Chris, keep us posted on it. Sounds great!! Best of luck.
 
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