Future Nitro Crew Chiefs (1 Viewer)

[jgrigz]

How realistic is it to look to the injected nitro ranks as a source of future Top Fuel crew chiefs? Are there enough similarities to progress from one to another? I’m thinking of guys like Clif Blax, Randy Meyer, Steve Boggs, Rich McPhillips etc. How big of a learning curve would it be? Johnny Linberg seems to be progressing nicely with Paul Lees car.

 

[z28]

How realistic is it to look to the injected nitro ranks as a source of future Top Fuel crew chiefs? Are there enough similarities to progress from one to another? I’m thinking of guys like Clif Blax, Randy Meyer, Steve Boggs, Rich McPhillips etc. How big of a learning curve would it be? Johnny Linberg seems to be progressing nicely with Paul Lees car.

I would think someone already on a TF car as car chief would have a heads up.

 

[T.Smith]

How realistic is it to look to the injected nitro ranks as a source of future Top Fuel crew chiefs? Are there enough similarities to progress from one to another? I’m thinking of guys like Clif Blax, Randy Meyer, Steve Boggs, Rich McPhillips etc. How big of a learning curve would it be? Johnny Linberg seems to be progressing nicely with Paul Lees car.

I wouldn't doubt they could make the transition, however, there definitely would be a learning curve. Some guidance would be needed.

The next issue would be the overall larger team aspect of a Top Fuel/Funny Car team.

 

[Slowpoke96z28]

Theres a difference with no cannon & different fuel percentage. I wonder how many people WANT the job actually. I know of a few, but that's it.

 

[Nick Rienstra]

There could be the chance that the TF/FC crewchiefs will need to learn to run AFD/AFFC in the future. Good chance the pros get slowed down a bunch as a result of forces latest accident.

 

[Slowpoke96z28]

There could be the chance that the TF/FC crewchiefs will need to learn to run AFD/AFFC in the future. Good chance the pros get slowed down a bunch as a result of forces latest accident.

 

[Z28LT1]

Seems like every big team has a car chief now. I assume those are future crew chiefs. The only one that comes to mind off the top of my head would be Nate Hildahl working at JFR under Prock. I know there are many more.

 

[BaldyLochs]

Seems like every big team has a car chief now. I assume those are future crew chiefs. The only one that comes to mind off the top of my head would be Nate Hildahl working at JFR under Prock. I know there are many more.

Lots of chiefs indeed. I remember somewhere hearing Kenny Bernstein remarking about with the modern multi-car teams, the Monday morning meetings after a race can really get hectic like a corporate boardroom because there’s a lot of people looking at all the performance data and each trying to figure out what what wrong or what went right - then how do you go out and do it again at the next race.

 

[NitroLuver]

So.......theirs a difference between.....

Car Chief

Crew Chief

Tuner

????

 

[cknight]

How realistic is it to look to the injected nitro ranks as a source of future Top Fuel crew chiefs? Are there enough similarities to progress from one to another? I’m thinking of guys like Clif Blax, Randy Meyer, Steve Boggs, Rich McPhillips etc. How big of a learning curve would it be? Johnny Linberg seems to be progressing nicely with Paul Lees car.

Randy Meyer used to run Top Fuel.

 

[Ramjet]

So.......theirs a difference between.....

Car Chief

Crew Chief

Tuner

????

Depends on the size of the operation. Crew Chief (CC) can be all of the above in a smaller team, but in todays world most teams have some or all of the above + crew members that are specialist's for their designated job. The "Crew Chief" is just that but has to delegate the jobs usually thru the Car Chief (cc) to keep things going smoothly. He/She (CC) makes the decissions on the Tune Up - Clutch - Car Balance - Tires etc. The Car Chief normally controls the maintainance of the Car and makes sure that the crew specialist get things done timely and correctly. Tuner executes the decisions made by the Crew Chief (this could be an assistant CC or crew member). ???? I presume means "What Else". Crew members have a specific job or Several that they do: For instance Clutch Speciaists has to R&R and "Read" what the clutch did ( worn discs- floaters & which one in the order) and make changes needed - tire Specialist has to "Read" the tires and see if changes are made. Some one changes balance of the car if needed. The "Pan Diver" With the top end guys R&R's the Rods & Pistons - checks the Mains and that determines if the short block needs changing (Usually changed in later rounds because of internal heat and safety {Crankshaft - Block - lifters/bores}). Blower Guy restrips & inspects the blower. Head guys do the heads and change nozzles if needed. The Driver does the fuel (% change if needed) and the Parachutes. Most of those people don't get to watch a round because they are prepairing for the next round if they win. Someone has to check on both lanes which depends on if you get Lane choice or not if you win the round. The CC sometimes has to make split decissions on changes in the "Magic Box" at the starting line. The Truck guys have to make sure everything is operating perfectly in the Pit and usually keep up with parts inventory (And sometimes cook). This is why it is a really big deal for a small team to go rounds and even win. It is a very big undertaking when there is NO way to run a fuel car and think the win money means anything to the bottom line.
P.S. The Driver gets to be the "Rock Star" but they will tell you that every one of the TEAM is equally important - There is no I in TEAM!

 

[Ramjet]

Quite a few years ago I worked on a project with Lanny Trevez of LTR Racing Engines developing a Hemi Engine for Shelby that basically used a Ford block with Arias Heads to be used in the Cobra's. We got the engine done in time to enter it in the Engine Masters competition. It was a competition to see who made the Higest HP production streetable engine by a Cubic inch fomula with 1 4BBL Carburator. We got it finished 30 hours before we needed to be at UNOH in Ohio. Broke a Rocker Arm on the Dyno after 3 days of no sleep. Finished 7th overall (22 entries) but probably would have been 3rd without breakage. By the way a "Pinch" head won. This relates to this thread because UNOH (University of Northwestern Ohio) is where the competition was In Lima Ohio. They have a World class Motorsports Complex for people interested in many different facets of Racing. The facility at that time was 70,000 sq. feet and probably the most complete learning center in the U.S. (maybe world) for sure. They had a placement department that when I asked about Drag Racing they said that they had placed 3 people recently with NHRA teams and one girl was starting with a T/F team as the Clutch "GUY". You could actually get a Degree in Automotive Technology with emphasis on different types or areas of Motorsports. This is not exactly an exact match for becoming a Fuel CC but it is a step in the right direction. Where was this in California 50/60 years ago when I got mine (Batchelor of Science - Can't say B.S.) in Automotive Technology? This program is outstanding in that you will learn how to think and relate Racing to Math - Physics - Analytics & more (also now with computer Data) while applying it to many areas of racing and high performance from F1 To Drag Racing with everything in between.

 

[NitroLuver]

Depends on the size of the operation. Crew Chief (CC) can be all of the above in a smaller team, but in todays world most teams have some or all of the above + crew members that are specialist's for their designated job. The "Crew Chief" is just that but has to delegate the jobs usually thru the Car Chief (cc) to keep things going smoothly. He/She (CC) makes the decissions on the Tune Up - Clutch - Car Balance - Tires etc. The Car Chief normally controls the maintainance of the Car and makes sure that the crew specialist get things done timely and correctly. Tuner executes the decisions made by the Crew Chief (this could be an assistant CC or crew member). ???? I presume means "What Else". Crew members have a specific job or Several that they do: For instance Clutch Speciaists has to R&R and "Read" what the clutch did ( worn discs- floaters & which one in the order) and make changes needed - tire Specialist has to "Read" the tires and see if changes are made. Some one changes balance of the car if needed. The "Pan Diver" With the top end guys R&R's the Rods & Pistons - checks the Mains and that determines if the short block needs changing (Usually changed in later rounds because of internal heat and safety {Crankshaft - Block - lifters/bores}). Blower Guy restrips & inspects the blower. Head guys do the heads and change nozzles if needed. The Driver does the fuel (% change if needed) and the Parachutes. Most of those people don't get to watch a round because they are prepairing for the next round if they win. Someone has to check on both lanes which depends on if you get Lane choice or not if you win the round. The CC sometimes has to make split decissions on changes in the "Magic Box" at the starting line. The Truck guys have to make sure everything is operating perfectly in the Pit and usually keep up with parts inventory (And sometimes cook). This is why it is a really big deal for a small team to go rounds and even win. It is a very big undertaking when there is NO way to run a fuel car and think the win money means anything to the bottom line.
P.S. The Driver gets to be the "Rock Star" but they will tell you that every one of the TEAM is equally important - There is no I in TEAM!

WOW!!! Thank you for the detailed explanation, Mr. @Roger Gates. I actually understand most of that lol.

I asked simply because I was curious if some of the verbiage of Car, chief crew chief, and tuner were being co-mingled. Makes sense though the smaller teams that I person could easily be two or even all three.

Thanks again.

 

[65 Goatboy]

Quite a few years ago I worked on a project with Lanny Trevez of LTR Racing Engines developing a Hemi Engine for Shelby that basically used a Ford block with Arias Heads to be used in the Cobra's. We got the engine done in time to enter it in the Engine Masters competition. It was a competition to see who made the Higest HP production streetable engine by a Cubic inch fomula with 1 4BBL Carburator. We got it finished 30 hours before we needed to be at UNOH in Ohio. Broke a Rocker Arm on the Dyno after 3 days of no sleep. Finished 7th overall (22 entries) but probably would have been 3rd without breakage. By the way a "Pinch" head won. This relates to this thread because UNOH (University of Northwestern Ohio) is where the competition was In Lima Ohio. They have a World class Motorsports Complex for people interested in many different facets of Racing. The facility at that time was 70,000 sq. feet and probably the most complete learning center in the U.S. (maybe world) for sure. They had a placement department that when I asked about Drag Racing they said that they had placed 3 people recently with NHRA teams and one girl was starting with a T/F team as the Clutch "GUY". You could actually get a Degree in Automotive Technology with emphasis on different types or areas of Motorsports. This is not exactly an exact match for becoming a Fuel CC but it is a step in the right direction. Where was this in California 50/60 years ago when I got mine (Batchelor of Science - Can't say B.S.) in Automotive Technology? This program is outstanding in that you will learn how to think and relate Racing to Math - Physics - Analytics & more (also now with computer Data) while applying it to many areas of racing and high performance from F1 To Drag Racing with everything in between.

Roger I'm almost as old as you. Graduated 44 years ago from SIU (Southern Illinois University) with a associates degree in automotive technology. Their was nothing like UNOH then. Never even thought about motorsports schools until now that I'm retired. Worked in the trenches for all those years gaining all kinds of great experience in multiple kinds of shops. Retired 3 years ago after 36 years of owning a shop and used car dealership. Thankfull that my high school counselor suggested I check out SIU in 1976, still rated #1 or #2 in the country for auto tech.

 

[Ramjet]

Roger I'm almost as old as you. Graduated 44 years ago from SIU (Southern Illinois University) with a associates degree in automotive technology. Their was nothing like UNOH then. Never even thought about motorsports schools until now that I'm retired. Worked in the trenches for all those years gaining all kinds of great experience in multiple kinds of shops. Retired 3 years ago after 36 years of owning a shop and used car dealership. Thankfull that my high school counselor suggested I check out SIU in 1976, still rated #1 or #2 in the country for auto tech.

The World really needs to go back to more Tech/Trade Schools. They don't have to all be Specialty schools like the Motorsports program at UNOH, but this one related to the Thread. I taught in a Regional Ocupational Center in L.A. for 22 years (18 in the Shop) in everything from Basic Engine Lab to Automotive Machining - Tune Up (with Chassis Dyno) - Brake & Front End - ASE Certification, as well as being the Department Coordinator that had to fill in other classes when necessary. Became a Vocational Guidance Counselor and wish that schools still had them with actual experience in the real world.
Quick Story: The students (younger adults) asked me one time "Mr. Gates - Why do we learn how to do a Valve Job on Chrysler Heads most Monday mornings". I said "Well, I usually try to hurt them on the weekend and it's good practice." I actually had students go to the races and Crew for me sometimes. One student even went to Bonneville with us and wound up buying a Lakester that he ran at El Mirage (Dry Lake).

 

[z28]

The World really needs to go back to more Tech/Trade Schools. They don't have to all be Specialty schools like the Motorsports program at UNOH, but this one related to the Thread. I taught in a Regional Ocupational Center in L.A. for 22 years (18 in the Shop) in everything from Basic Engine Lab to Automotive Machining - Tune Up (with Chassis Dyno) - Brake & Front End - ASE Certification, as well as being the Department Coordinator that had to fill in other classes when necessary. Became a Vocational Guidance Counselor and wish that schools still had them with actual experience in the real world.
Quick Story: The students (younger adults) asked me one time "Mr. Gates - Why do we learn how to do a Valve Job on Chrysler Heads most Monday mornings". I said "Well, I usually try to hurt them on the weekend and it's good practice." I actually had students go to the races and Crew for me sometimes. One student even went to Bonneville with us and wound up buying a Lakester that he ran at El Mirage (Dry Lake).

I'm sure you gave lots a kids a head start on life. We definitely need more skilled tradesmen and women

 

[Slowpoke96z28]

I'm sure you gave lots a kids a head start on life. We definitely need more skilled tradesmen and women

The skills are different now. For starters, in a capitalist driven society, the skills have to match the market. It was discussed in another post, but I can't remember the number of "big show" nitro cars on the planet at any one given time. But let's be generous and say 100, including FIA and IHRA in the count. 1 tuner, and maybe 3~4 people who aspire to tune per car. That's 500 people tops. When shops going forward need CNC programmers, welding robot programmers and maintainers, and all other manner of thing, tech schools aren't going to be focusing on the old school skills needed for nitro tuning imo.

The solution imo is for current chiefs to get together, maybe once each winter break, maybe at PRI or something, and compile what they're willing to share about lessons learned that season, and an editor sit down and find the common ones, and publish it. Also get prior tuners still alive to dump all the history they can remember, that way someone tomorrow doesn't waste time trying something already tried and tested yesterday. Or retry something that maybe we didn't have the technology for yesterday. That way, it's kind of like how encyclopedias got updated every year. Then a person can be like, "hmm, in 2025 édition, didn't so and so say xyz? Maybe it's time to revisit that. Let's try this vs that..."

Right now, it's practically impossible for an aspiring tuner to learn even the basics because there are so few crew spots to even start at the bottom washing parts, so the pool for the future is small unless things change.

 

[Ramjet]

The skills are different now. For starters, in a capitalist driven society, the skills have to match the market. It was discussed in another post, but I can't remember the number of "big show" nitro cars on the planet at any one given time. But let's be generous and say 100, including FIA and IHRA in the count. 1 tuner, and maybe 3~4 people who aspire to tune per car. That's 500 people tops. When shops going forward need CNC programmers, welding robot programmers and maintainers, and all other manner of thing, tech schools aren't going to be focusing on the old school skills needed for nitro tuning imo.

The solution imo is for current chiefs to get together, maybe once each winter break, maybe at PRI or something, and compile what they're willing to share about lessons learned that season, and an editor sit down and find the common ones, and publish it. Also get prior tuners still alive to dump all the history they can remember, that way someone tomorrow doesn't waste time trying something already tried and tested yesterday. Or retry something that maybe we didn't have the technology for yesterday. That way, it's kind of like how encyclopedias got updated every year. Then a person can be like, "hmm, in 2025 édition, didn't so and so say xyz? Maybe it's time to revisit that. Let's try this vs that..."

Right now, it's practically impossible for an aspiring tuner to learn even the basics because there are so few crew spots to even start at the bottom washing parts, so the pool for the future is small unless things change.

You are absolutely Correct in that you would need the Market to even attempt to try and make a vyable way to produce Top Tier Crew Chiefs. It seems that this is not really needed in a shrinking Market (Fuel Drag Racing). Also: You are being VERY generous with the numbers here. There are not actually more than a couple of dozen Top Tier teams (also being generous) in the World that are willing or able to pay the kind of money involved to produce the level of CC we are talking about. The move up the ladder system is probably the best way to go by far. It is naive to think that one of the few Top CC's is going to give away any of their Data even though there is more than one way to "Skin" a cat. People will even pay big money just to see runs from the Race Pac (which can be reverse engineered by someone looking for a minute change in what they are doing). An analogy - Coca Cola hasn't given out their original formula in a hundred years and it AIN'T going to happen anytime soon.

 

[Slowpoke96z28]

You are absolutely Correct in that you would need the Market to even attempt to try and make a vyable way to produce Top Tier Crew Chiefs. It seems that this is not really needed in a shrinking Market (Fuel Drag Racing). Also: You are being VERY generous with the numbers here. There are not actually more than a couple of dozen Top Tier teams (also being generous) in the World that are willing or able to pay the kind of money involved to produce the level of CC we are talking about. The move up the ladder system is probably the best way to go by far. It is naive to think that one of the few Top CC's is going to give away any of their Data even though there is more than one way to "Skin" a cat. People will even pay big money just to see runs from the Race Pac (which can be reverse engineered by someone looking for a minute change in what they are doing). An analogy - Coca Cola hasn't given out their original formula in a hundred years and it AIN'T going to happen anytime soon.

Top Tier teams are not the only ones with competent/highly proficient tuners. Sometimes it’s a manner of budget or or ability to execute the tuner’s plan in the hour window. And it doesn’t even have to only be the best. Someone like me could learn from even the losing-est tuner. There’s a ton of nitro knowledge that doesn’t apply to just winning rounds. There’s consistency, which is most important. There’s learning how to look at the weather Tuesday to start planning for the weekend, there’s learning how to read the groove for details specific to big show cars, there’s learning WHAT needs to be learned, there’s learning why an all valve is better than a slide & bdk, there’s learning what channels are always needed on a racepak vs which ones are nice to have. Then too, there’s guys who don’t compete anymore, and FIA and IHRA tuners who have zero desire to race outside of their current sanctioning body. Some already have relationships that cross sanctioning bodies and some don’t, but honestly, i think most are willing to teach to some level.

About teaching from the racepak, a person doesn’t even have to share whole run files if they’re trying to show something. Activate the channels you want, fuzzy the top with any free pic editor, and screenshot. Boom, you got a teachable handout.

Yea, Coca Cola won’t give out their formula, but none of were born knowing the base is carbonated water. We had to learn that. That’s all I’m saying that my “annual debrief book” would cover. Tell me how the hell to carbonate water without blowing stuff up. Tell me how to find sugar in the volume needed. Tell me why we don’t put cocaine in it anymore so I don’t waste time trying to cross a bridge that’s already been crossed and condemned.