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V. Gaines

#21
Roy and Magahay(sp) both said the RPM limit hurt hemis more ( informed builders ) no Ford and Mopar haven’t dominated in years because NHRA handicaps their engine when they were dominating, when has GM ever been penalized for dominating, Ford and Mopar racers all agree their brand was factored out so the favored GM brand would be competitive
 

Nunz

Nitro Member
#22
While the Hemi cars were dominant for awhile in the '70s and then factored out, I believe there was a reset that leveled the playing field in '82 with the 500in. platform. That was 35 years ago, so for the past 35 years I don't believe NHRA has done anything to favor or hurt one manufacturer over another. But, maybe I'm wrong.
 

none

Nitro Member
#23
Roy and Magahay(sp) both said the RPM limit hurt hemis more ( informed builders ) no Ford and Mopar haven’t dominated in years because NHRA handicaps their engine when they were dominating, when has GM ever been penalized for dominating, Ford and Mopar racers all agree their brand was factored out so the favored GM brand would be competitive
Please tell me the last time NHRA "Handicapped" the Ford or the HEMI. And if you're going back to the 70's I don't want to hear it. For 37 years the rules have been the same for everybody. 500 cubic inches, 2350 lbs. No penalty for performance for any brand that I'm aware of. When Allen won the Championship and then Jeg did the same in the Dodge, was there a penalty levied on the HEMI then? So please tell me why NHRA would decide that they needed one now? Did the HEMI heads need to be reworked for the new RPM rule? Sure they did, so did the GM both the 2 and the 3.

Alan
 
#25
all other arguments aside, Chris McGaha said the Hemis were down 30hp after the 10,500rpm rule.
With only a few Mopars out there, they didn't have the lobbying effort in place to let the NHRA know it was unfair to strangle them with that rule.
I really believe the NHRA threw the baby out with the bath water when they went with the new engine swap rule, rather than rescind the RPM limit.

I also think they should have went to a 427 rule....no manufacturer made 500 engines in their performance cars.... 429 should have been the max ci, allowing for Ford 429, Pontiac 428, Chevy 427, Mopar 426, ....Oldsmobile you are too big at 455 - gotta go on a diet!
 

none

Nitro Member
#27
I read every word of that, he said after 1982 (I was wrong about the date earlier) everyone was on the same rules package.

Were there shenanigans going on in the early 90's? I think so, I can't prove it one way or another and I'm not going to argue about it. It was 25 years ago.

Bob Kirkbride mentioned earlier that the port was too short, that would simply mean that you make the manifold runner longer. The runners have always (at least as long as I have been involved) been measured from the plenum to the valve, so if you need a longer runner you extend the manifold. Not sure how many of you know that you can change the power band with runner length. The lower the RPM the longer the runner needs to be. That's why as the RPM range went up over the years the runners got shorter and shorter. At 10,500 the runners are longer again.

When I was with Nickens we never covered a manifold as so many did because what you saw wasn't what we were running anyway. We would build a manifold with extremely short runners and a very large plenum, then fill the plenum with epoxy. We could then machine the epoxy to exactly the length and shape (taper, radius, etc) we needed and to experiment we would just grind out more of the epoxy. To go the other way we would pour more in, let it set and start over. But if you copied a manifold of ours by looking at the outside of it, you wouldn't be even close to what we were doing.

With the fuel injection, the location of the injector itself is a HUGE factor in the power band and I believe that's why many manifolds are covered today, it's not design, or length, everyone has that figured out, but exactly where you locate the injector is something no one will tell you.

Alan
 
#28
You know a lot more about it than I but to the average fan like myself it seems NHRA and NASCAR too for that matter will make new rules if Ford or Chrysler get an advantage, GM on the other hand are allowed to dominate year after year. Look at the big Hemi of Early 70’s, dominating one year, next year uncompetitive to a 30 year old design motor a 100 cubic inches smaller,
Back to the thread though, I don’t know any true blue oval guys who would root for a mustang with LS power, it’s close to an abomination to us!! Lol
 
#29
I agree with Alan...after all he was there.

But didn't the new hood scoop rule also restrict the cars that need the higher/longer runner length? The hood is only so high now...

Also, McGaha said playing around with injector placement and using some fuel to cool the intake charge was one way. The carbs used to cool the intake air with the atomized fuel.
But then NHRA put the kibosh on that ......"for 2017, there was a rule amendment stating all fuel must pass through the Holley injectors."

This is a great vid of a Renault F1 engine using a separate set of cooling injectors


Maybe NHRA should allow 2 stage injection, since they skipped the throttle body injection development and went right to port injection.
 

RM FAN

Nitro Member
#30
You know a lot more about it than I but to the average fan like myself it seems NHRA and NASCAR too for that matter will make new rules if Ford or Chrysler get an advantage, GM on the other hand are allowed to dominate year after year. Look at the big Hemi of Early 70’s, dominating one year, next year uncompetitive to a 30 year old design motor a 100 cubic inches smaller,
Back to the thread though, I don’t know any true blue oval guys who would root for a mustang with LS power, it’s close to an abomination to us!! Lol
You MOPAR guys whine about something that happened 60 years ago and now try to include FORD for some reason and forget about the tainted championships won by MOPAR in the 90's. Just try and remember every time you bring up the hemi was factored out back in the 70's the NHRA paid there debt by allowing them to run NOS in the 90's end of story. WJ said he would like to work on the hemi and never said anything about the rpm rule holding him back.
 
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FABMAN

Nitro Member
#31
If someone could pick it up there's a great conversation at PRI with Jess at Frankenstien about there work on the Hemi Head and Manifolds. It really looks encouraging for next year a lot cool work they're doing. Said they would have Engine running at Winternationals in Pomona. Maybe Bob or someone could find it post it.:cool:
 
#32
You know a lot more about it than I but to the average fan like myself it seems NHRA and NASCAR too for that matter will make new rules if Ford or Chrysler get an advantage, GM on the other hand are allowed to dominate year after year. Look at the big Hemi of Early 70’s, dominating one year, next year uncompetitive to a 30 year old design motor a 100 cubic inches smaller,
Back to the thread though, I don’t know any true blue oval guys who would root for a mustang with LS power, it’s close to an abomination to us!! Lol
Since some claim there's no partiality, let's look at this another way. When in the history of drag racing has any restriction been put on GM cars? Both Ford and Mopar have been hit with weight breaks for having a perceived advantage; never to a GM (as far as I know).
 

Bob K.

Nitro Member
#34
Since some claim there's no partiality, let's look at this another way. When in the history of drag racing has any restriction been put on GM cars? Both Ford and Mopar have been hit with weight breaks for having a perceived advantage; never to a GM (as far as I know).
There has not been any weight restrictions since the 500 cubic inch/2350 pound limit has been in any effect. WHY SHOULD THERE BE?
 

Bob K.

Nitro Member
#35
I read every word of that, he said after 1982 (I was wrong about the date earlier) everyone was on the same rules package.

Were there shenanigans going on in the early 90's? I think so, I can't prove it one way or another and I'm not going to argue about it. It was 25 years ago.

Bob Kirkbride mentioned earlier that the port was too short, that would simply mean that you make the manifold runner longer. The runners have always (at least as long as I have been involved) been measured from the plenum to the valve, so if you need a longer runner you extend the manifold. Not sure how many of you know that you can change the power band with runner length. The lower the RPM the longer the runner needs to be. That's why as the RPM range went up over the years the runners got shorter and shorter. At 10,500 the runners are longer again.

When I was with Nickens we never covered a manifold as so many did because what you saw wasn't what we were running anyway. We would build a manifold with extremely short runners and a very large plenum, then fill the plenum with epoxy. We could then machine the epoxy to exactly the length and shape (taper, radius, etc) we needed and to experiment we would just grind out more of the epoxy. To go the other way we would pour more in, let it set and start over. But if you copied a manifold of ours by looking at the outside of it, you wouldn't be even close to what we were doing.

With the fuel injection, the location of the injector itself is a HUGE factor in the power band and I believe that's why many manifolds are covered today, it's not design, or length, everyone has that figured out, but exactly where you locate the injector is something no one will tell you.

Alan
I know about the epoxy used in lots of manifolds even in Super Stock. The fuel injection manifold that is required now makes it really hard on the MoPar "hemi" because unlike the tunnel rams there isn't room for a long enough intake runner with the intake valve being so close to the intake port. At least that's what I've figured out just looking at it. I'm sure Roy Johnson tried a few intake set ups. I think the new rule is really going to be great. After all Ford copied the big block Chevy engine with their 351 Cleveland and 460 engines. And the Dodges used a head similar to the GM head until NHRA made them use the then new "Hemi" engine only around 2001. Anyway excuse my babbling for I haven't had any sleep tonight!! so I might be wrong.
 
#36
I'm a mopar guy and I say forget about what happened in the 70's and If the port is in the wrong place then move it. Pro stock blocks and heads come as cast, it is not like going and buying a ready to bolt on setup from Dart or whoever.

Ports have been welded up, epoxied and altered for decades.

Also the pro stock hemi combustion chamber is not a classically true hemi head like on an old hemi or a fueler