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Discussion in 'NHRA' started by ironpony, Dec 4, 2017.
Hoe do you make a Ford go fast? Put a bowtie in it!
You won't find an argument on that particular point from me........... Lol
That’s a good point.
Am I still bitter about the way Mopar's Hemi was penalized early on, and effectively legislated out of existence? You're dadgum right I am.
To your point, why didn't NHRA tell GM to quit whining and build better engines?
Instead, NHRA rewarded mediocrity by penalizing the Mopars to the benefit of the GM cars.
I was fine with the 500 c.i. class until NHRA legislated the 10,500 rpm rev limit. Yet, the only manufacturer affected was Dodge. It was deja vu all over again.
Besides, why in the heck is there a rev limit in PS? It's not like PS cars are running 300+ mph and need more shutdown room.
Why should Dodge continue to develop new engine technology, only to be rightly concerned that NHRA will penalize them at a future date should they begin winning?
Once bitten, twice shy.
Just change the class name to Pro Camaro and use them for filler.
You can only get kicked for so long, then when you are competitive again they CHANGE the rules again, capping RPM, everyone knew this would hurt the HEMI's even McGaha a GM guy said it first. EFI hurt everyone across the board. Just think AJ and Roy were getting back on track this year, imagine what might of been with no RPM limit??? MOPAR dominance possibly???? we will never know.
Yes, if you cut me I bleed MOPAR blue. MY avatar is on my left arm 50th HEMI anniversary.
HAHA Ted treed me.
I would be bitter too, no doubt. But to say the 10,500 limit was specifically set to render the Mopar combination useless is a bit of a stretch. Like I said earlier, Wayne County had their turn dominating the class for several years without penalty, so if they were truly after them (Mopar), they would've legislated them out then and never allowed that dominance to occur in the first place.
As for the rev limit, I think you'll find it was to aid in valve train costs, which has been said to be as much as a 6-digit item on the balance sheet. As a springmaker by trade, I originally thought that measure was not going to see any measurable results and I was critical of it. However, after a few conversations with Nick, it has appeared to nearly double their lives in the engines, which greatly surprises me and I do stand corrected.
But that's not accurate, Ken. Everybody seems to forget both Ford and Mopar's dominance with Glidden and Wayne County, respectively. From 1982 until this recent debacle of rule changes, everybody not only was on the same playing field, they ALL got it done during one time frame or another. If their goal with the RPM change was to render the Mopar useless, why didn't they do something when The Dodge Boys were kicking everybody's ass? I realize the RPM limit adversely affected the Mopar engines, but to say that rule was put in place specifically for that reason just doesn't make sense.
Nobody appreciates a brand loyalist more than me, regardless of the fact that I happen to be a GM guy. My Pops was a GM line mechanic for over 40-years, so that's what I was exposed to. And nothing pissed me off more than when Glidden beat Shepherd, or when Wayne County made their way to the top. But the bottom line is, I enjoyed the variety and the competitiveness those times provided, even when my guys weren't winning.
Except in a Chevrolet, ironically........ Lol!
As a sidebar, I went through Roy Hill's Pro Stock school after the Winston Invitational in the early '90's and I was fortunate enough to have Geoffrion virtually to myself as a guest instructor over those few days. One of the greatest guys I've ever met to this day, despite his factory affiliation at the time......... Lol!
Is that so?
See you in E-TOWN!
But when you have 16 plus GM's and 3 or 4 Mopar teams what was actually gained? and like you pointed out it has gone in cycles for many years and that is fine I am not really bothered that GM is winning but that they made MOPAR not competitive and I am sure NHRA knew it was more detrimental to Dodge than GM that is their job to know.
Prior to to rule change why were there only 3 or 4 Mopar teams and really only one competitive team? If Mopar was serious about PS and there were more teams dedicated to racing a Mopar you would see more. I think this is a good move allowing more body styles not just GM, Ford and mopar but also Honda or Toyota. Who knows maybe the Manufactures will slowly come back and participate again. I doubt you will ever see them pour money into an engine program though at least not for 500 cube one.
I went on bangshift.com and there is an article written by Bret Kepner, predicting that Pro Stock would have rules just as NHRA will do in 2018. Only, the article was written in 1978!!! Good read.
the key is accepted body style, so whomever has to modify one of their car models to fit within the NHRA,s spec template. I highly doubt that at this point any manufacturer is going to develop a body to put a "GM" engine in. If we are lucky someone that has a Ford or Dodge chassis and will put a lease engine in it. Again I would doubt someone will go and buy a Ford or Dodge to put a GM engine in it, just get a Camaro
Ford would not have to develop a body since there is already one out there and approved from what i understand. How about for Mopar try another body style that will be competitive?
I don't necessarily disagree with you, Ken. I've often wondered over the years why there were so many more decent running Chevy's than there were the one Ford in Glidden and the three Mopars in Wayne County and AJ. Is it because GM gave their guys more support and resources? Is the GM design better suited for naturally aspirated racing? I've always heard growing up that it's more cost-effective and cheaper to go faster with Chevy stuff, but that's just street and mild racing stuff. At this level, I would think that adage wouldn't hold water. These guys are on a whole different level when it comes to dollars spent.
As for your point about it being NHRA's job to know, I don't think I could give them that much credit. Their recent string of decisions for this class certainly doesn't illustrate to me that they would have that level of expertise......... Lol.
Why the 10,500 RPM limit? When in doubt follow the money.
its not the Dart, it is the rpm limit. The HEMI comes alive above 10,500. Chris McGaha who has a HEMI program even said it when they lowered the limit the final nail in the coffin for Dodge.
I agree, Roy and AJ can only justify spending so much of their own money.
now that Mopar is out as a manufacturer and everyone running a Mopar will be a privateer, how about using the Gen 2 Hemi? I thought the all the new Hemi development was because of their involvement (race on Sunday, sell on Monday). Now the old Hemi can run EFI with real Hemi heads that breathe, and go against the DRCE which is Big Block Chevy architecture
When I spoke with Roy at Norwalk he said the new parts supply was running low and MOPAR was not making anymore. So if you cn not get parts there is no sense in developing whats left only to run out
Wasn't the problem with the old (true) Hemi that you could only run so much compression? The Hemi design limited the compression to like 12:1. Engines of today run way higher than that, like 18:1 from what I hear. I wish someone could run the 429 Ford, which is really a semi-Hemi like the Rat motor. the Fords seem to do well in mountain motor configuration, like PDRA.