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Leah Wins FSS

#61
I'm not seeing Chevy and Ford pulling out, personally. Not this early, anyway. But if, and that's a big IF, Mopar was granted the use of something that doesn't reflect a current combination, as well as parts not being available to everybody, then I don't want to hear sh!t out of the Mopar camp about this weight.
"Mopar was granted the use of something that doesn't reflect a current combination"

If you meant similar to what you can get in a street version, I'm confused. Only the Fords use a variant of a road-going block and by the time it's assembled into a full engine it's nothing like the street use Coyote. Last I heard, you can't walk into a Chevy dealer and order a Camaro for the street with a 427 or Supercharged 350 (Although I bet some wish they could!). Likewise, you can't order a street Challenger with a 426 or the drag pak's Supercharged 354.

EDIT: But I guess you can get a base 4 cylinder Camaro and buy the copo engine yourself and swap it. :)
 

RM FAN

Nitro Member
#62
It doesn’t take a scientific rocket to believe GM didn’t like the fact there were two Mopars in the FSS final at the Chevrolet Performance U.S. Nationals.
Just curious, when is the last time a GM race package has been penalized to the benefit of Mopar or Ford?
This latest penalty is nothing more than an acknowledgement of mediocrity, the same as what happened in PS for the 1972 season.
I seriously doubt anyone from GM lost any sleep over one event. I'm sure GM was happy with the all Chevy final in PS.
Since you went back to 72, NHRA could allow NOS for Ford and Chevy just like they did for MOPAR in PS back in the 90's?
 

ironpony

Nitro Member
#63
15 Camaros in the field and 2 of them actually made it to the finals ???? GM must be very proud

I would say this is similar to when I won a S/G event, I was the only one in the class, 6 cyl auto with a 9 inch slick, got the trophy though.
 
#64
"Mopar was granted the use of something that doesn't reflect a current combination"

If you meant similar to what you can get in a street version, I'm confused. Only the Fords use a variant of a road-going block and by the time it's assembled into a full engine it's nothing like the street use Coyote. Last I heard, you can't walk into a Chevy dealer and order a Camaro for the street with a 427 or Supercharged 350 (Although I bet some wish they could!). Likewise, you can't order a street Challenger with a 426 or the drag pak's Supercharged 354.

EDIT: But I guess you can get a base 4 cylinder Camaro and buy the copo engine yourself and swap it.:)
You really need to get over to classracer and check out all the discussion. It's crazy informative, by guys that have forgotten more about this stuff than you, I and everybody posting on this board will every know. Below is the best post I've seen about the subject by Bell. I particularly like what he says in #5, as well as his summary at the end. The class is awesome to watch! As for the current status of the class, regardless of what is being said, I think it's too early to start factoring them, but when you consider the combinations, I don't know how anybody can intelligently say that you're not going to have to do it at some point. All three manufacturers have different cubic inch combinations, and while you can regulate weight and blower size/overdrive, the cubic inch difference is still there, soooooooo.........

We are all entitled to our opinions, but here are the facts:
1. Dodge doesn’t race a production a race car. The engine didn’t come in the car from the factory. The car has been significantly modified.
2. Ford and Chevy do race a car with the engine that the car came with.
3. The top three CJ’s and Copo’s consistently run with in .03’s of each other!
4. Dodge is outrunning the other combinations by 6 mph, at 20-25 hp per mph there is no way they don’t have 100-150 more hp than CJ’s and Copo’s. 1.25 60ft times and out running the other brands by .10-.12 every run at Indy is factual.
5. These cars are showcasing the manufacturer’s and how cool stock eliminator cars are! What will ruin the class is out of control spending. This class needs to be regulated by a combination of weight and pulley size. If this doesn’t happen there will not be full fields in the future and the class will go away.

My opinion is that the class is pretty cool! I like that Dodge has their act together and is really fast. I don’t like showing up the the races with no chance of winning unless a Dodge has a mechanical failure or spins the tires(at 1.25 60ft and 20degrees of timing out of the car for over second it will never happen). I think that Ford and Chevrolet are working on improvements for next year and will close the gap. The cars need to run 7.90’[email protected] and that’s it. It’s very marketable that a production car from the factory can do that and it’s relatable. From a performance standpoint anything more than that the engines don’t live and there is only so much a 3,500lb car and a 9 inch tire can do safely! I also think that Dave Ley and Danny Garcia have done a great job trying to keep this class in its box. NHRA is doing what they can to understand this class and it’s future. It is a new class and needs some tweaking, but if done correctly it will be a viable platform for some great racing!

S.Bell
 

ironpony

Nitro Member
#65
if you are a GM guy you will *itch when Ford or Mopar wins
if you are a Ford guy you will *itch when GM or Mopar wins
If you are a Mopar guy you will always *itch..................
but seriously unless you run cars that were purchased off the showroom floor with NO mods you are going to be having these debates.
NONE of the combos running in FSS are available from the factory. Period.
 

TSK

Staff member
Nitro Member
#66
I seriously doubt anyone from GM lost any sleep over one event. I'm sure GM was happy with the all Chevy final in PS.
Since you went back to 72, NHRA could allow NOS for Ford and Chevy just like they did for MOPAR in PS back in the 90's?
There you go with unsubstantiated rumors again. If you have PROOF of the use of NO2 (NOS is for the F&F crowd), please provide it. I'm sure the insurance company who investigated the Wayne County break-in and subsequently paid out over $100K would love to see it so they could recoup their loss. Otherwise, that particular horse needs to be put out to pasture and sent to the glue factory.
Facts are, NHRA (and almost assuredly GM) did not like how the HEMIs dominated PS in 1970 and 1971, and hit them with severe weight penalties. To give an example of favoritism to Chevy, Bob Glidden's 351C Pinto had to weigh more than a 427 Camaro. (A perfect example of recognizing mediocrity.)
The HEMIs were so burdened that Mopar pulled out. Wally Parks even later admitted it was a mistake for what they did to Mopar.
Glidden continued, through hard work, to dominate the class. Finally, NHRA come to the conclusion weight breaks weren't working, and went to the 500 C.I., 2350 lb combination. That worked for a while.
Then, you had Allen and Roy Johnson in their Mopars, again through hard work, finally start getting even with, and sometimes ahead of, the GM contingent. What happened next?
NHRA instituted a rev limit that adversely affected only the Mopars. After that, NHRA went completely against the origins of PS and allowed the use of any engine in any car. Now we're stuck with an all GM powered class.
GM cars were all over the FSS class until Mopar won two events, one being the Chevrolet Performance U.S. Nationals in an all-Mopar final. And, within days, the Mopars were penalized.
As far as the all Chevy final in PS, I must say that is a tremendous grasp of the obvious. How many cars were running something other than a GM engine?
 
#67
Then, you had Allen and Roy Johnson in their Mopars, again through hard work, finally start getting even with, and sometimes ahead of, the GM contingent. What happened next?
NHRA instituted a rev limit that adversely affected only the Mopars.
Next time you're at the races, track down Ferri and see what he says about that. ;)

Keep grasping.

Sean D
 

TSK

Staff member
Nitro Member
#68
Keep grasping.

Sean D
What am I grasping at? Did NHRA not penalize the Mopars in ‘72? Did they not institute an RPM limit that effectively killed the Mopars?
What about the latest penalty against the Mopars in FSS?
Or have I just imagined all this?
Besides, if as alleged above, NHRA “allowed” the use of NO2, then it wasn’t illegal. But, I have a feeling there might be a person or two here who take exception to such an accusation against NHRA.
However, even after multiple tear downs, no proof of NO2 use was ever found.
 
#69
What am I grasping at? Did NHRA not penalize the Mopars in ‘72? Did they not institute an RPM limit that effectively killed the Mopars?
What about the latest penalty against the Mopars in FSS?
Or have I just imagined all this?
Besides, if as alleged above, NHRA “allowed” the use of NO2, then it wasn’t illegal. But, I have a feeling there might be a person or two here who take exception to such an accusation against NHRA.
However, even after multiple tear downs, no proof of NO2 use was ever found.
I've said before, I'll give you guys the mess that happened back in the early '70's. The HEMI would've been factored out at some point on their own, but you indeed could've and should've had a certain amount of time of success.

I'm not even going to address the Wayne County BS, because it's too easy. If you're in that much denial about it, I can't help you. Everybody knows who's manufacturing money was coming in the door at Glendora during that time, and everybody knows that's how the NHRA operates. Dog and pony show at its finest.

The RPM issue seems to be a point of contention with the Mopar camp, but one of the baddest of the bad engine builders says there's quite a bit more to it than that. He said point blank that there were GM powerplants turning higher RPM than the Mopar and that the fuel change effected them more than the RPM change did. But what kills me is that everybody in the Mopar camp thinking these changes, whether it was the RPM or the fuel, was specifically put in place to take away performance from the Mopar powerplants. Even if that was their intention, the technical expertise isn't currently employed there. Get serious, man. It's a joke.

As for the FSS, I'm going to say it AGAIN. Get over to classracer and read. These are the guys in the know. Not you. Not me. Not anybody on this board. Barton spelled it out pretty plain, as did Bell, which I quoted above, yet the only real rebuttal was, "work harder". Lmao!! On that note, what is YOUR response to what Barton and Bell stated?

Sean D
 

ironpony

Nitro Member
#70
The ONLY reply I have is

Are the MOPARS running within the rules NHRA set?? if they are there should be no whining.

kind of like the Harleys in PSB huh?
 

RM FAN

Nitro Member
#71
There you go with unsubstantiated rumors again. If you have PROOF of the use of NO2 (NOS is for the F&F crowd), please provide it. I'm sure the insurance company who investigated the Wayne County break-in and subsequently paid out over $100K would love to see it so they could recoup their loss. Otherwise, that particular horse needs to be put out to pasture and sent to the glue factory.

First the insurance company could careless about Mopars obvious cheating they only cared about the break in. And you are right this should be put out to pasture just like what happened in 72. Did you and Ken invest a lot of money in the PS hemi back then is why you guys cant let this go?

By the way....what manufacture is whining about anything in FSS?
 
#72
The ONLY reply I have is

Are the MOPARS running within the rules NHRA set?? if they are there should be no whining.

kind of like the Harleys in PSB huh?
Believe it or not, I actually agree with this; BOTH statements.

Let's just say for the sake of the argument that what Barton and Bell are claiming is true. Why in the world would NHRA do this in light of all the backlash the HD deal has caused in PSB? Especially in a brand new class? Do they not care? Or maybe, in light of all the controversy, there is still what appears to be a strong support for the class (which still puzzles me to this day......)?

But I will stick with my original position. With all three combinations being different cubic inches, they should've come out factored. Since they didn't, they need to let it ride for a while and see how it all shakes out.

Sean D
 
#73
Everyone keeps referring to Mopar guys, Ford guys and GM guys, what about "fans of close racing guys"? Heads up racing is trickier than most people realize. Multiple combos bring a lot of excitement, but if one is superior, no amount of hard work can make up the difference. For example, today, all of the top blower Pro Mod guys use Hemi heads, where as 10+ years ago most where using conventional wedge heads. At some point, they realized hard word could not make the wedge heads as good as the Hemi. The FSS guys are bound to class/mfg specs and if one is far better, it is bad for fans, drivers and the class. I could care less, which brand wins, and like to see all 3 of them having a fighting shot every weekend.
 
#74
"At least on the surface it looks like the Chevrolet people were embarrassed by the Mopar dominance at Indy and complained to NHRA."

You have proof of the this?

"It just smells like NHRA playing favorites at this early stage, and reeks of the same tactics that ruined Pro Stock."

Smells like a Mopar guy whining to me?
Whoa.... easy there. If you read carefully you'll notice these are OPINIONS, like 95% of what is posted on these boards. I worded that as innocuously as possible, and opinions in normal conversation those don't require proof. You are completely entitled to your brand loyalty, but let's put the shoe on the other foot. Had it been the Dodge Nationals and two COPOs appeared in the final, then a day later NHRA penalizes the Chevy guys, wouldn't it appear to you that the Dodge people were embarrassed by that and complained to NHRA? So did Chevrolet complain? Nobody knows for sure, but it looks like it. That's all I was saying. Again, an opinion.

And the reason I said what I did about NHRA ruining Pro Stock is that it effectively drove the Hemi out of PS competition for decades. During all that time development continued for the GM engines and went stagnant for the Hemi. There was, and perhaps still is, no way all those years of Hemi non-development can be made up for (although Roy Johnson did very well with the Gen III until the RPM limit). So I'm not whining, I'm pointing out an injustice that even Wally Parks admitted he regretted. As far as FSS goes, the COPOs have won some of the events, as have the Drag Paks, so to me it just seems too early to be playing weight break games. Let the class play out a little longer, and then if there's nothing but Dodges in the winner's circle for a long time, factor away, because no one brand should have an insurmountable advantage.
 
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ironpony

Nitro Member
#75
Unless it is GM in PS then the Mopar contingent has to suck it up and work harder or the factory needs to build better stuff.

Now that Mopar has better stuff in FSS it is justified to factor them. instead of GM stepping up and making their stuff better.
 

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